Didn't want to touch this subject, but it's not going to go away anytime soon. Admittedly, I am 100% emotionally invested in the situation, and my capacity for rational thought on the matter is virtually non-existent.I don't know what I'll do if the Jays trade Doc.
Forgive me if it sounds like I'm repeating myself (because I am), but we aren't talking about just trading away the team's ace and best player. That shit happens all the time. The Twins know it. The Indians know it. Oakland fans live through it year after year.
We are talking about trading away the face of the franchise, maybe the best player the organization has ever seen, and more importantly, a man (cyborg) who wants nothing more than to make it work with the only big league team that he's ever known.
This shit is heartbreaking. Potentially.
Let's lower the alarmist flag (thanks, Stoeten) and try to be reasonable here. Ricciardi hasn't said that Doc is on the block. He has only indicated that he wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't listen to offers. But why even make that statement, then? Other than to drive a media firestorm and ratchet up interest, of course. But where does that road lead?
Then comes Buster Olney's article which reveals that Ricciardi has prepped Doc for the possibility of approaching him with potential destinations. That sounds, to me, a lot more strategic than "hey, if people want to call, we'll listen."
The question I have is: why now? How does any trade involving Halladay make any sense right now? Will the heist be that much bigger at the July deadline than it would be at the Winter Meetings when the hotstove is in full blaze? What happened to the Beeston/Ricciardi/Gaston proclamation that 2010 is The Year? What happened to "waiting until the offseason to approach Doc about an extension." Fuck the fuck, fellas?
Again, those who know me, know that I'm typically a prepare for the worst/hope for the best kind of guy. I know that's how I'm coming across here. But the timing of all this reeks of something more than Jays management taking a "just doing our job by listening" approach.
Rip away, blogosphere and commenters. Tell me that I'm reading too much into things. Believe me, I want to be wrong on this.
I don't know what I'll do if the Jays trade Doc.
61 comments:
On the bright side, my boy Rzepczynski had a nails debut.
Oh wait. Jays lost in extras.
Fuck.
Nothing wrong with being emotional, at least when it comes to Halladay. I frickin' love the guy, so much so that I didn't want to know the outcome of his quest of win number 20 last season until AFTER the game. Why? Because I would have been way too pissed if I found out the Jays were losing while the game was going on. Does that make any sense at all? No. Then again, I still occasionally think about "that game" in Baltimore in May and how Doc should have 11 wins right now. I secretly want him to start the All-Star game even though I barely pay attention to it anymore. Does that make any sense? No. In fact, I can't even explain why I like the guy so much. Perhaps it's his Cyborg-like workout methods or the lack of controversy or he's humble... who knows? My (eventual) point is... I get it. Halladay IS the Blue Jays, and to trade him away even for an eventual, theoretical championship seems criminal.
Hey Nik - you just blew my mind. I'm down, man.
The day of reckoning is upon us.
Love Roy Halladay with all my being, but if he doesn't want to sign an extension, and I don't blame him if he doesn't, the Jays have to explore the trade route.
And I get it. I get that he wants to win. His new team (*shudder*) will become my new team, and I will wholeheartedly support his quest for a ring.
If it's not going to happen here, that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen at all for Doc. He deserves it. He deserves it way too fucking much.
Fuck. I'm going to pour a drink.
I HOPE they trade HALLADAY !! Then maybe baseball fans in Sportsnet WEST regions might get a chance to see him pitch !!
The Rogers are so shortsighted. Do they want to destroy this franchise.What terrible owners. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Halladay is not only the face of the franchise, he is the heart and soul of it. Who will actually attend the games now? To see wells and Rios flop again and again? If Halladay is traded, the franchise is rebuilding. With the Os rebuilding and the Yanks, REd Sox and Rays there already when will Toronto compete in 2015? I mean 2010 was a lie, they have no catcher OR SS signed for that year. Wilner's ideal about them being awfully good in 2010 was wrong....he should have said they will be goodly awful instead! and Stoeten? Tao why give him any bloody props? He doesn't know what he's talking about AND he's drunk half the time! He's calm? SCrew him then! They get rid of Roy why even bother with this team........
All right guys it's time to come back in from the window ledge and all take a deep breath. Halladay isn't going anywhere soon. What team right now has a package that is going to be worthy of the best pitcher in baseball right now. Nobody! JP wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't listen to offers. Halladay will sign an extension in the off-season. Mark my words on that. Think how good this team is going to be in 2010 and in the future. JP is doing a great job stocking the farm system with good unknown talent. The evidence was there last night and has been shown a few more times with all these young guys coming up. I for one am excited with the prospects coming up for this team and won't leave these guys if Doc is dealt. However, the Doc isn't going anywhere.
First off, I don't want to see Halladay leave, period. But I can't justify saying that either side is short-sighted in this whole thing. There is a strong possibility that the Jays do better with a combination of existing (and currently on DL) pitching. '10 and '11 should be solid rotation years even without Halladay. Watching Halladay pitch is amazing (maybe even mind-altering), but I think it's possible he isn't the only, or even the best, pathway to the playoffs.
@Q-Jays, no way they compete '10 and '11 without Halladay in the mix AND the way the pitchers drop like flies. C'mon lets drop that '10 and 11 BS already, why do you think Doc say he wants to win? He really doesn't have a chance with the Jays otherwise he wouldn't talk like that. BUT if Beeston and the Rogers are smart, spend some money get a bonafide no 2 sign Bay, get rid if Vernon and pay some of the contract and dump Rios on some team. They are a drag on this team, production AND payrollwise!If they spend at least 100 million, they at least can retain Halladay beyond 2010 and have LInd play first or a kid play 3 in 11.
Layth, I think we all hope you're right....but yesterday, Ricciardi wasn't exactly sounding like a guy who'd have the payroll flexibility to do it, and Doc wasn't exactly sounding like a guy anxious to re-up with the club.
I do think you're right, though...I don't know a lot of clubs would be willing to part with the package JP is sure to be looking for. Fuck, flipping through Sox/Yanks blogs, those douchebags seem to think packages like Ian Kennedy and Francisco Cervelli, or Clay Bucholz/Jed Lowrie would do it.
Fuck. Right. Off.
What happens if the offense acts in 2010 like it did in 2008? What are our chances then?
If JP trades Doc to a team in the AL East, he is officially the worst GM ever.
There's no way JP trades him to either Evil Empire. If Doc wants to pitch in New York or Boston, he goes there via free agency.
If you're Halladay, how do you NOT test the market?
J.P.'s left with no choice but to explore a trade.
I've decided that I'm equal parts Jays fan, Halladay fan, and baseball fan. If Halladay gets traded, then so do a good chunk of my loyalties. This morning I came to terms with the possibility of become a Red Sox fan. And I would drink that koolaid so fucking fast. Why? Because on MLBTradeRumors[sic] there was mention of one person suggesting that in the NL Halladay could conceivably win 27 games. And that made me excited. Very excited.
Heart always,
Anon.
If it comes out that this is a result of Halladay asking for a trade or hinting he may not sign an extension (unlikely in both cases, I think) then J.P. has got to go. I've defended him enough over the years. This is just bullshit.
If Halladay gets traded for any other reason than he asked for it, or made it clear he wasn't going to resign, I will burn down the Rogers Centre. And I won't watch the Jays.
- Mabel
WIWG - Yes, they should simply sign Halladay to a new contract, and get a solid #2, and get Jason Bay, and dump VW and AR (assuming Snider is full time next year and they find a solid DH or CF too), while paying most of their salaries. I don't disagree that this would be quite awesome ... but, I hardly feel this fits with your suggestion of dropping the BS.
Put a 4 year, $80 million dollar extension on the table.
If he doesn't sign, the team is left with no choice but to trade him, whether that means your fandom with the Jays is over, or not.
That's the rub though, isn't it? Would we even be having this conversation if JP had the capacity to do it? Or has Rogers already closed the door on the possibility of committing that $80 million?
HALLADAY!! Go to the DODGERS, and you are guaranteed a pennant!!
SCREW YOU ROGERS!!!!
They can't be that stupid, to have already shut that door, right?
Although I'm sure the folks up top are sitting back thinking that the Vernon Wells extension worked out really fucking well.
Fuck.
I think JP's hands are tied on most of this stuff. I'd like to see how successful Theo Epstein would be without the blank check.
There's probably a management team from Rogers blocking most of the expenditures while they sit around wondering why Ted wanted a baseball team and wishing they owned the Leafs.
As much as I hate to say it, they might as well try to maximize the return on Halladay. I can't see why he would sign an extension with the Jays.
Well, I think that's it -- the total cost of keeping Halladay isn't simply the cost of the contract, but the cost to get him interested in signing one with this team. Can the Jays do better by not going that road -- lots of "ifs", but if you base it on a reasonable projection of what you already have, maybe so. Again, I'm not saying I favour losing Halladay, but I'm simply trying not to get choked if that's the decision. It might work.
This whole situation just makes me nauseous...if I truly believed that JP and Rogers were capable of making the SANE decision, I would feel fine right now...the SANE decision is to do whatever is necessary financially and otherwise to keep Halladay - offer him $20+ million over the next 4-5 years, and assure him that payroll will not be cut...take steps to embarass Wells into offering an "only if the $ goes to keeping Doc" restructuring of his contract (as was suggested on one of the Jays blogs)...
Or if wells is a dick about it, deal him for ANYTHING, offer to pay $10MM of his salary to do it, and use the $11-13 million you save each year to keep Doc...Rios, Snider, Lind, and OF/DH acquisition X (cheap: a Jack Cust type...a little more money: A PAt Burrell type) become your 3 OF's and DH...We are likely stuck with Ryan, but if some team will give us anything and we pay $5-6MM of his salary, there's another $4MM (unlikely, but have to try)...
The Jays WILL NOT get a Bartolo Colon-type return (Lee, Sizemore, Phillips) from a trade, and even if they did, it will not have an impact for years...
I have been with this team for my whole life, and although I'm not wealthy, I have found the $ to split on season tickets...but if they deal Halladay for ANY reason other than "Roy Halladay has asked to be traded" then I am DONE with this team...
Anon: if Halladay refuses to sign an extension, what else is the team supposed to do?
Well, I hate to be pessimistic but if I were you I would lock up taoofdoc.com
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2009/07/08/ricciardi_halladay_trade_update/
Sportsnet has it ass backwards there. Reading Jon Heyman (the "online report" in question - worth the read) just reiterates that Halladay gave the go-ahead after being approached by JP - not initiating it, as Sportsnet would have you believe. Dicks.
Still, not sure if that makes it better or worse....
Ack, if the Jays trade Halladay I'm afraid I would also sprial downward into a deep depression which way or may not involve eating gallons and gallons of Haagen Dazs Ice Cream followed by gallons and gallons of homemade wine.
This is the problem - who the fuck are we supposed to believe?
I'm going to start drinking. It seems like the right thing to do.
@eyebleaf: If Halladay refuses to sign the extension, then obviously the Jays have no choice but to trade him...but I think that if the Jays show some balls and admit to making mistakes when it comes to Wells and Ryan, they can get rid of at least SOME of the financial restraints that would keep them from getting better around Doc...
A restructured Wells contract (as suggested over at The Southpaw) could allow them to pay Doc market value and keep Wells (if Doc sees that as a good thing)...at this point, I personally prefer trading Wells for ANYTHING at all and eating $10-11MM of his salary each year...take $5-6 million of the savings on Wells and bump Halladay up to $22MM...use the other $6-7MM (along with a possible Ryan-related and other savings) to replace his bat...if the Jays were at all serious about 2010, then bite the bullet for the one year and bump the salary up to acquire one big bat...then in 2011 you decide who of Rolen, Overbay, etc. stays...
IF this team is willing to admit it's mistakes and adjust, they can pay Halladay well AND improve the team...my fear is that they will be short-sighted and refuse to "eat" part of Wells' deal, even though it's for the best...
the Jays with Rios, Lind, Snider, and $10MM DH/OF X and Doc is 1000X more appealing than Rios/Lind/Snider/Wells and no Doc...
I know it's never as easy as it sounds, but there are creative options that can be explored...
True story - I put my wife on notice last night that if Doc gets traded, I won't be right for a week (at minimum, likely much longer).
She nodded her head sympathetically.
She knows. Oh, she knows.
@ Anon: I don't see Wells restructuring his contract. But I feel you. There are creative things that can be done, and I hope to God they're being looked at. Creativity aside, I think it all comes down to, like you said, Rogers biting the bullet. We have to increase payroll; period. Fuck. Fucking Rogers.
@ The Ack: She knows. Oh, she knows.
You clearly made the right choice.
If Doc's traded, there's going to be a memorial concert at the Dome that will put MJ's to shame.
I think the difference in like/hate for Rogers and/or Ricciardi varies based on who initiated, but I can't see it affecting how much I like Halladay.
Anon @ 1:14 -- your scenario of no Doc assumes no value is taken in return for losing him. If it's true that there is interest on either his part, or ownership's part, in moving him, I'd at least like to see what that value is.
I don't know why Ricciardi is talking about difficult moves to improve the club--like trading Doc--when he hasn't made easy moves to improve the club--like replacing Millar and Dellucci.
@eyebleaf: I realize there is some hopeless optimism to thinking Wells might restructure, but The Southpaw does a good job of spelling out how a deferred-annuity-type thing (Wells gets paid several million a year for many years after he is retired), as well as being the guy who kept Doc in Toronto rather than being hated as they guy who made Doc leave, AND the chance to have not-sh*tty team for the remainder of his time in Toronto, could at least make it possible...
What a time for the Tao to be on vacation. He'll probably come back and chastise us all for being a bunch of alarmist babies, and boot me from the site for contributing to the hysteria.
All well and good, I'll likely have lost my mind by then anyway.
I read that piece over at The Southpaw; shit was fucking nails. If Wells does that, I'm getting rid of the Vernon Wells Hatred Advisory System altogether, and singlehandedly making it my goal in life to have Wells' name added to the LEVEL OF EXCELLENCE. Do it Vernon. Fucking do it.
And I was just thinking about our good friend, Tao. Imagine he comes back to a Doc-less Jays team? Oh, the humanity.
Interesting tweet from the Beyond the Boxscore boys: "Or, the Jays should package Vernon Wells in any Halladay deal. (Of course, I think Wells can rebound (eyebleaf: me too, believe!!!1), but what do I know?)
I think that's interesting. You want Doc? The only way you get him is if you take fucking Vernon with him.
The hits keep a comin':
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archives/2009/07/ricciardi_on_ha.html
money quote:
"We have kept him from free agency twice and I don't think we have the resources to keep him from free agency a third time, so I have to investigate what is out there," Ricciardi said.
Halladay did not ask the Jays to move him.
Not that I thought he did, but, it's reassuring to know.
"We have kept him from free agency twice and I don't think we have the resources to keep him from free agency a third time, so I have to investigate what is out there," Ricciardi said.
- If they actually lose him based purely on money, I am done with this team...there is no way I could watch Wells shit the bed for the next 5 years knowing he's the reason Doc is somewhere else...
Breaking: Jays activate Downs, unconditionally release B.J. Ryan.
Holy sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit
The comments are truly alive with Tao bringing the wet blanket out.
Well done, Ack. Maybe you should go solo.
And by "with" I mean "without."
My level of Jays fandom is independent of Doc's uniform. I was a big jays fan in the eighties and nineties and will be a big jays fan after Doc is no longer with us. I became a fan of Doc's because he became a blue jay.
I'd prefer him in our lineup for another ten years, but it's about the shirt, not who wears it for me.
What a truly crazy 24 hours it has been. It seems the pendulum has swung from "non-story" to "not if but when". Can we stop this somehow?
And Bart Given's latest on sportsnet.ca is a must-read, by the way:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/blogs/2009/07/08/givens_blog/
And 435 Anon, I'm with you. I'll still love the Jays - they're my team, yo - but a little (big?) piece of me will die seeing Harry Leroy toss the ball in another uniform.
An addendum I'd make on your comment, though, is that yes, I became a fan of Doc's because he became a Blue Jay, but I dare say that I became a bigger fan of the Blue Jays because of Doc.
I feel nauseous again.
Well at least the Yankees aren't making a move on him. I get really disgusted seeing Jays players in New York. (AJ)
The news on the Beej is sad, but I suppose inevitable. I guess Dirk Hayhurst now gets to keep that spot. Can we call him DJ now? We've completely run out of _J pitchers.
I can't say I'm any bigger a fan now than I was in '93 or '85. Except I'm bigger....and have internet.
Rosenthal says rios and rolen on the block as well. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a rebuild.
Fuck everything. Except booze.
Except what Rosenthal is saying is a pile of bull. "... when this process is started, it can't be stopped". After all the speculation this winter, where is Jake Peavy pitching right now?
VOTE LIND
I was born in Brooklyn and am a lifelong Yankees fan. No apologies necessary in New York, but I feel I must preface comments on other team blogs so that I don't come across as a bandwagon hopping, arrogant jerk. I'd be a Yankees fan if they lost 100 games a year.
That said, I feel for the Blue Jays, and after reading these comments, hope that they do retain Doc, even at the expense of my Yanks. Baseball is a traditional game, with local traditions even more important than national traditions in developing the mystic bonds that fans feel for the game. I think of Halladay as the face of the same way I think of Rivera or Jeter as my favorite Yankees. These players are not interchangeable. I want to go to a Jays game excited to see the Yankees try to beat Halladay. In a perfect universe, Jeter will always be a Yankee, Nomar will always be on the evil Red Sox, and Doc will always be a Blue Jay. Let's hope the Jays come to their senses.
I'm with you Ack. If Doc gets traded, I'm going to burst into tears :-(
From an outsider's perspective, I'd brace yourselves. The Red Sox, Yankees, and Tampa Bay are three of the best teams in the majors at the moment and for the near future. If the Jays played in the AL Central or the AL West, a couple good moves could jump you into the playoffs, if not to the top of the division. But Halladay is 32. Even if he stayed an ace for another 4 years and you had a Steinbrenner checkbook, it would be tough to build a winner in this division. I understand the emotional attachment of trading the face of the franchise, but you'd feel even worse if he walks away in free agency and you get a couple draft picks. Trade him now IF an offer with high quality major league/AAA talent presents itself. The good news is that it's almost impossible he'd go within the division.
- Anonymous Red Sox Fan
Anonymous Red Sox Fan is right. The despair I feel is about the hopelessness our average farm system and shrinking payroll instills in me.
I'm depressed not at the thought of trading Doc, but the prospects of ever getting out of the division.
True story - I put my wife on notice last night that if Doc gets traded, I won't be right for a week (at minimum, likely much longer).
I put mine on my pole! There'll be lots of angry sex if Doc gets traded!
Hey, we'd love to have Doc on the Dodgers, but we're not giving up Kershaw or Billingsley.
Think your GM, what's his name, Ricardo, Licardo, whatever, would be interested in Blake Dewitt and James Mc Donald? In return, we promise whack the Yankees or the Sox in the series.
Miscellaneous fans of other teams - thanks for the (kinda) moral support.
At least now we know that you know how this is tearing us up.
Man.
Roy has been my fantasy league ace for 4 years now. It's made me cheer for the Jays (except when they play the Redsox) and I have the utmost respect him. Sucks for you guys north of the border, but you are in the toughest Div in baseball and I'm sure as much as he would prefer to stay put, he wants a chance at a ring. I wish him the best and hope you get some great young talent and can build up a team like the Rays.
Sad days for the Jays...
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