tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post157661621500145889..comments2023-12-15T07:22:02.492-05:00Comments on The Tao of Stieb: Will the august Hall call upon Robbie?Tao of Stiebhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12459135109404905466noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-79676239969712436672010-01-08T09:29:51.704-05:002010-01-08T09:29:51.704-05:00I don't know that you completely get my stance...I don't know that you completely get my stance. I'm totally ok with Dawson. He's one of the handful of players I distinctly remember from my early youth, which makes him "famous" enough for me. Along with winning an MVP for a last place team, is enough in my mind.Stedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505875328065401356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-48310343609150867162010-01-07T18:26:52.268-05:002010-01-07T18:26:52.268-05:00That last anon was me Stedron. And i was messin&#...That last anon was me Stedron. And i was messin' with you on the McGwire spelling.<br /><br />I've never been able to spell his name with a "w" before, but I'll probably never forget now.<br /><br />I won't apologize for not being up in arms over the voting process. I think we'd agree on who should be in and who should be out, but would disagree on the validity of the process.<br /><br />Overall, I acknowledge that Dawson should probably be amongst those just on the outside of the Hall based on contributions on the field as we are able to currently measure them. But I will not begrudge a voter for giving the Hawk a few points for intangibles - I believe they matter even though they can't be measured.<br /><br />I'm also very happy that, for the first time, it looks like Blyleven will be successful in his journey to the Hall. It leaves hope for Raines and others who's accomplishments are unheralded.<br /><br />I'm also satisfied with 74% of the electorate voted for Alomar and I'm quite sure he'll be enshrined next year.<br /><br />I know you want an "in or out" vote, but I'm not fussed and I'll accept the system as it is.<br /><br />I wish there were less idiots out there voting, but everybody knows that the world is full of stupid people so why should we expect the BBWAA to be any different - hell they think BaseBall is two words apparently.<br /><br />I'll apologize now for any spelling mistakes in this post.Gil Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01177204960812280259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-13628801191031884752010-01-07T14:21:25.762-05:002010-01-07T14:21:25.762-05:00Help me out here...when did steroid officially bec...Help me out here...when did steroid officially become illegal in the MLB?brainiachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17217293327823949195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-77926055298500244352010-01-07T13:09:11.959-05:002010-01-07T13:09:11.959-05:00That was my point. I was just pointing that out t...That was my point. I was just pointing that out to you since you say Rose should get in. I say they should all be in.<br /><br />McGWIRE!!!!!!!!!!!! ARRRRGHH!!!!Stedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505875328065401356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-85319426908951461392010-01-07T10:41:44.574-05:002010-01-07T10:41:44.574-05:00Stedron, why is okay to invoke ethics on Rose bett...Stedron, why is okay to invoke ethics on Rose betting on sports, but not Maguire using steriods, or Alomar spitting on unpires? I agree that the repurcussions don't have to be the same, but you can't say ethics have no place in sports in one post and then say that you agree Pete Rose is rightfully suspended for gambling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-71237918940280622632010-01-07T08:38:06.003-05:002010-01-07T08:38:06.003-05:00The story I heard is that they had to lock up Holl...The story I heard is that they had to lock up Holliday to show Pujols that they were committed to winning. It was spun as if the signing was a step toward resigning Pujols. That's a huge commitment to Holiday though.<br /><br />Gil, you continue to make no sense to me. I have no idea who you think my idol is. I also don't see why it's too much to ask that you spell a player's name right if your input is to be taken seriously. I'd like a little reassurance that you have a clue as to what you're talking about.<br /><br />Anon, I 100% agree that the voters just not liking Bonds will delay his induction, but I still think he has to get in.<br /><br />I also agree that Rose should be in, but if you're talking about integrity of the game, the fact that he wagered on his team while he was the manager can't be ignored. He claims he always bet on them to win, but his track record for honesty is well chronicled.<br /><br />In summation, I believe that you can't have a generation where your inductees are Griffey, Randy Johnson, Maddux, and that's it. It will just leave a giant void in the story. You have to keep the criteria to greatness on the field, and do your best to pass on the stories of who these people were. In 70 years people can look at Bonds the same way many people look at Cobb. Players like Griffey can be thought back upon fondly because they did things the right way. I'm just not comfortable with pretending some players and feats never occurred. My opinion is that no one will forget about Roger Maris or Hank Aaron regardless of the fact that those records are no longer theirs. Their names will come up every time someone talks about McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds, and hopefully the whole story is told consistently and people will be left to come to their own conclusions. Were Bonds and McGwire juicing? Almost certainly. Were the pitchers they were facing juicing as well? To some extent, it appears so. Is it still incredibly difficult to hit a baseball? Sure it is. Weighing all these factors will be a great discussion for future generations (hell, it's a great discussion for our generation,) and any thought-provoking nuances regarding the game will be great for the game's future. I wonder how many young baseball fans would know about Shoeless Joe if Field Of Dreams wasn't made? It's that doubt that makes me strongly believe that the Hall of Fame has a responsibility to baseball fans to tell the whole story.Stedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505875328065401356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-13766592502572324862010-01-07T00:13:42.852-05:002010-01-07T00:13:42.852-05:00But won't Pujols command at least $8m per seas...But won't Pujols command at least $8m per season more than Holliday? Is it possible that they signed Holliday because they knew they couldn't afford Pujols?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-31728743554034075902010-01-06T23:48:10.725-05:002010-01-06T23:48:10.725-05:00Alomar deserves to be in the hall!!!
Randy Ruiz ...Alomar deserves to be in the hall!!!<br /><br /><br />Randy Ruiz deserves a look at DH in 2010!!!Crazy BJSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-25702827196277067642010-01-06T23:40:08.208-05:002010-01-06T23:40:08.208-05:00I don't know how much month the Cardinals have...I don't know how much month the Cardinals have left to sign Albert Pujols, you'd have to think the Cards wouldn't pay this much for Holliday if it meant they wouldn't have enough money for Pujols.Tom Dakersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-45097903253764185382010-01-06T17:53:05.049-05:002010-01-06T17:53:05.049-05:00Palmeiro also pointed while lying to the Senate. ...Palmeiro also pointed while lying to the Senate. Pointing is a big no-no with BBWAA.<br /><br />Robbie pointed before he spat, you may remember. The BBWAA remembered.Gil Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01177204960812280259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-70149845299774716922010-01-06T17:45:35.377-05:002010-01-06T17:45:35.377-05:00The question regarding McGwire (and eventually Sos...The question regarding McGwire (and eventually Sosa and Bonds) will be answered next year, when Palmeiro is eligible. Going by his numbers (10th all-time in total bases, 500+ homers, 3000+ hits, 1300+ walks, 1600+ runs, and two/three Gold Gloves), he's a big, immediate yes. <br /><br />Buuuuut, he failed a drug test.KLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-33859900994436072962010-01-06T17:21:56.774-05:002010-01-06T17:21:56.774-05:00Like it or not, "character" (or whatever...Like it or not, "character" (or whatever you want to call it) is obviously a factor among the current voters. <br /><br />Personally, I am a big fan of Pete Rose and would have no problem with his admission. His numbers were awesome and it's hard to say they were augmented by his bets. <br /><br />Clearly, the HOF induction method is not without flaws. Unless it changes to a purely stats-based system, these sort of personal beliefs will, rightly or wrongly, affect who gets in. <br /><br />For many people, it does not matter if Bonds was the greatest player to ever step on the field. They just don't like him. Unreasonable or unfair as it may be, it could keep him out of the HOF forever.<br /><br />Maybe we should just plug stats into a computer and it could determine who gets in. Obviously, I would not stop watching baseball if a noted juicer was inducted. That said, I will not deny the schadenfreude that would come with Bonds, McGwire and Arod continued rejections.<br /><br />Maybe I am not a true baseball fan and just like those spiteful old curmudgeons doing the voting. I apologize for any previous ad hominem attacks, but I really do enjoy this interesting debate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-13951780645245747092010-01-06T17:21:16.337-05:002010-01-06T17:21:16.337-05:00Apparently Stedron stayed up all night unable to c...Apparently Stedron stayed up all night unable to contain his excitement over his idol being voted into a Hall he feels has no legitimacy. Go figure.Gil Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01177204960812280259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-31992783226323408532010-01-06T17:19:18.282-05:002010-01-06T17:19:18.282-05:00Gil....seriously....you just said that you want to...<i>Gil....seriously....you just said that you want to deny someone the satisfaction of getting in, BUT YOU'RE OK WITH IT IF THEY'RE DEAD!!! Holy crap dude, self-righteous much? <br /><br />And really, if you want to contribute, at least spell McGwire right. Are you still bummed the Jays traded Holliday?</i><br /><br />Get a grip, child.Gil Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01177204960812280259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-28319841440415477862010-01-06T16:39:20.231-05:002010-01-06T16:39:20.231-05:00Steroids/drugs are bad, mmmkay.Steroids/drugs are bad, mmmkay.Navin Vaswani (@eyebleaf)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08445618400360263938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-73693548141795341552010-01-06T16:31:07.333-05:002010-01-06T16:31:07.333-05:00IT'S NOT ABOUT CHARACTER!!!! I'm not defe...IT'S NOT ABOUT CHARACTER!!!! I'm not defending any of these actions, but as a fan of the game, I believe this MUSEUM should represent all aspects of the game. Warts and all. To strive for anything else is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Put Rose's transgressions on his plaque, put the speculation about Bonds on his plaque. Let people think for themselves. IT'S ENTERTAINMENT! IT'S JUST A GAME! Inclusion into the hall of fame doesn't bring with it god-like status, or immortality. It's a bust in a museum! Excluding exceptional players based on factors outside the game (Rose) or questions of morality (Bonds) is - if nothing else - censorship. <br /><br />Thinking that these fictitious "rules" that you're making for inclusion should only be applied in the present and not retroactively is hypocritical. <br /><br />Great players should be included in the story of baseball. Currently, that story is told in the Baseball Hall Of Fame MUSEUM! I can't stress that last word enough. It's right there in the title. This voting shenanigans is just a way for a bunch of old curmudgeons to feel important.<br /><br />Really, if you honestly think that Bonds won't get in, I question if you even watch baseball, and thus, I question why I'm wasting my time having this discussion with you. He was the best player for a generation steroids or not, and while people like you will try to make a statement from your tower and not vote him in on the first ballot, I guarantee you he gets in (along with McGwire, eventually.) You're so adamant in your stance, what are you going to do when/if one of these dirty-birdy no good cheaters does get in? Are you going to boycott the game? Are you going to cry about it?<br /><br />Your point about players that didn't use would be valid if they were without representation. They could have gone to their union at any time and put a stop to PEDS, but the problem went on for a decade before there was any movement that direction (after the court of public opinion was coming down on everyone in the sport.) So either A) they didn't mind, or B) the majority was using. Either way makes your stance pretty moot.Stedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505875328065401356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-34563720025021570302010-01-06T16:12:03.249-05:002010-01-06T16:12:03.249-05:00"The simple fact is that..."
Sigh... I&..."The simple fact is that..."<br /><br />Sigh... I'm clearly too stoned to be having this debate. <br /><br />I am just surprised that the condemnation of McGwire, Arod, Bonds, et al. has not remained near-universal.<br /><br />I thought that was something that could unite humanity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-61578147082704641382010-01-06T16:03:02.252-05:002010-01-06T16:03:02.252-05:00"Rules" Oh, you must be talking about th..."Rules" Oh, you must be talking about the rules right now, as opposed to the rules when these individuals were actually competing. Silly me to try and use the rules under which these players were governed."<br /><br />They are rules that establish the framework in which the current crop of potential Hall of Famers is evaluated. They are the rules that will see players like McGwire, Bonds and Arod perennially rejected until the day you die. <br /><br /><br />"First of all, no MLB team would ever employ a player known to be using steroids. There is no debate here" You're telling me that gm's weren't turning the other cheek to this behavior? You're telling me that no one knew? Hilarious."<br /><br />I am in no position to speculate as to what GM's did or did not know during that period. All I am saying now is that if there was concrete proof of a player using steriods, he would not be hired by any MLB team today. <br /><br /><br />"Do you own a television? There's a Mel Gibson movie being whored out right now. Something about darkness? Edge of Darkness maybe?" <br /><br />I asked you the last Mel Gibson movie you saw. Not which one is currently being advertised after several years as an industry pariah. Regardless, there is no comparison between actors and athletes who use steroids. An actor's behaviour off the set does not influence their performance in front of the camera. Steroid use directly affects an athletes performance and creates an unfair advantage compared to the players who are not engaging in cheating and deception. <br /><br />"Are you actually comparing recreational drug use among musicians to performance enhancing drug use among professional athletes?" Absolutely. Maybe not as much in this generation, but if you don't think marijuana and lsd had a profound effect on music as we know it, well I just don't know what to say to you other than you're in denial."<br /><br />Maybe you don't understand the practical consequences of steroid use. There is nothing stopping any musician from using drugs. Nobody would ever contend that a musician who uses drugs is "cheating." I don't think that musicians who don't use drugs are resentful towards the ones who do. Perhaps you should have a conversation with one of the baseball players who weren't cheating. The simple fact is that<br /><br /><br />"The implication there is that athletes you use steroids are not admirable. Tell me then, why are we inducting them into a so-called "Hall of Fame?"" I'll take a stab here because your statement doesn't really make sense. It's simple. Hall of FAME. Since you have your reference books out from earlier, check out words associated with fame....like FAMOUS. We wouldn't be talking about these guys if they weren't."<br /><br />Are you saying that the only metric for Hall of Fame admittance is "Fame?" Are you being deliberately obtuse or can you not conceptualize any other degree of merit besides what is literally spelled out in front of you? <br /><br />I'm sorry, but I really can't understand how anyone can advocate the inclusion of cheaters into the Hall of Fame. Ethics, morals, rules. Call it whatever you want. <br /><br />Stedron, if you actually were able to somehow reproduce, I hope you raise your child with a little more character than what you espouse here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-78958225229933876892010-01-06T15:45:16.665-05:002010-01-06T15:45:16.665-05:00"I also don't mind if bad boys are made t..."I also don't mind if bad boys are made to wait. I would like to see a postumous vote for particularly bad people like Jackson and Rose, so that they don't get the gratification of election during their lifetime, but they do eventually go where they belong based on their on-field achievements."<br /><br />Gil....seriously....you just said that you want to deny someone the satisfaction of getting in, BUT YOU'RE OK WITH IT IF THEY'RE DEAD!!! Holy crap dude, self-righteous much? <br /><br />And really, if you want to contribute, at least spell McGwire right. Are you still bummed the Jays traded Holliday?<br /><br />Sorry Tao, I'm cranky today.Stedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505875328065401356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-70940050015413843392010-01-06T15:41:27.966-05:002010-01-06T15:41:27.966-05:00"It's fairly common knowledge that Bonds ..."It's fairly common knowledge that Bonds started using steroids after McGwire and Sosa exploits in 1998."<br /><br />Nothing can prove that.<br /><br />---<br /><br />If you want to "prove" something, show me proof that Barry Bonds has used steroids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-8267929869437017062010-01-06T15:41:23.966-05:002010-01-06T15:41:23.966-05:00Were you in a coma in the 90's? If not, can y...Were you in a coma in the 90's? If not, can you at least go pick up a Thesaurus and see if you can connect the dots between ethics and rules? Save your time, because you can't. If you want, I suppose you could try the Bible.<br /><br />Anyway, here we go:<br /><br />"Rules" Oh, you must be talking about the rules right now, as opposed to the rules when these individuals were actually competing. Silly me to try and use the rules under which these players were governed.<br /><br /> "First of all, no MLB team would ever employ a player known to be using steroids. There is no debate here" You're telling me that gm's weren't turning the other cheek to this behavior? You're telling me that no one knew? Hilarious.<br /><br />Do you own a television? There's a Mel Gibson movie being whored out right now. Something about darkness? Edge of Darkness maybe? It's irrelevant unless you really want to make the argument that actors and musicians are denied work based on ethics. (you're going to have an easier time if you understand that ethics are closer to morals than rules." If you really want to get pantsed in a debate about that, let me know.<br /><br />"Are you actually comparing recreational drug use among musicians to performance enhancing drug use among professional athletes?" Absolutely. Maybe not as much in this generation, but if you don't think marijuana and lsd had a profound effect on music as we know it, well I just don't know what to say to you other than you're in denial.<br /><br />"The implication there is that athletes you use steroids are not admirable. Tell me then, why are we inducting them into a so-called "Hall of Fame?"" I'll take a stab here because your statement doesn't really make sense. It's simple. Hall of FAME. Since you have your reference books out from earlier, check out words associated with fame....like FAMOUS. We wouldn't be talking about these guys if they weren't.Stedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505875328065401356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-19773052894483878002010-01-06T15:40:09.587-05:002010-01-06T15:40:09.587-05:00"I would vote for McGwire"
The only rea..."I would vote for McGwire"<br /><br />The only reasonable explanation is that Tao sympathizes with the cheater's plight. Why settle for being good when you could be abnormally, freakishly, suspiciously amazing?<br /><br />If McGwire discovered that eating baby hearts boosted his performance, he probably would have been making monthly trips to Calcutta orphanages.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-59361635634733391192010-01-06T15:38:10.473-05:002010-01-06T15:38:10.473-05:00Dawson had 438 HRs and 318 SB (75% success rate).
...Dawson had 438 HRs and 318 SB (75% success rate).<br /><br />Other members of the 400/300 club:<br /><br />Mays<br />Bonds<br /><br />That is all.Gil Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01177204960812280259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-1181387100068601032010-01-06T15:32:08.294-05:002010-01-06T15:32:08.294-05:00"It's fairly common knowledge that Bonds ..."It's fairly common knowledge that Bonds started using steroids after McGwire and Sosa exploits in 1998."<br /><br />Nothing can prove that.<br /><br />If it is true, it just compounds the stupidity of tainting those terrific thirteen seasons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2484762138483195409.post-17010008913783617572010-01-06T15:31:06.504-05:002010-01-06T15:31:06.504-05:00I like mentally discounting stats for Steriod user...I like mentally discounting stats for Steriod users as Anon above has. I also like the idea of holding off on the voting for one (like a McGuire) until as many facts come out as possible, so that my discounting can be well informed. I'm not sure McGuire didn't start the junk in the eighties in Oakland. I'm not sure he was ever clean.<br /><br />I also don't mind if bad boys are made to wait. I would like to see a postumous vote for particularly bad people like Jackson and Rose, so that they don't get the gratification of election during their lifetime, but they do eventually go where they belong based on their on-field achievements.Gil Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01177204960812280259noreply@blogger.com